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Post by Khodhum on Sept 7, 2008 0:08:17 GMT -5
Whoawhoawhoawhoawhoawhoawhoa you read Fruits Basket??? I haven't read the manga...but I LOVE the anime! You are officially my very good friend!
...Yeah, I just admitted I'm a fan of a shoujo anime. So what?
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Post by Norwesterner on Sept 7, 2008 1:18:52 GMT -5
Switching genders might have turned WALL•E into more of a Cinderella-type story.
Yes, a female WALL•E character may well have been more sympathetic, and a male EVE perceived as even a jerk (. . . why is it that women are thought of as perhaps "cool" or "cold" in such portrayals, while men are just called "jerks"?) But the way the movie is written, sympathy seems more equally balanced between the two.
And yes, while the "low guy gets high girl" was done in the TITANIC movie in 1997, I still think WALL•E's is a more original approach that is free of the "baggage" of expectations and conventions that would inevitably accompany a "Cinderella"-type story.
And besides, could you imagine a female Charlie Chaplin character, as WALL•E was intended to mimic or pay homage to? It's easier to laugh at the pratfalls of an unfortunate male lead; but for good or bad, it's much harder to laugh at any similar misfortunes of a hapless female lead . . . unless you want them to come off like Lucille Ball. But then, where would the romance be, unless you wanted a remake of FANCY PANTS?
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Post by vanessajoyce on Sept 7, 2008 6:13:16 GMT -5
Hey, at least I'm not alone . . . shoujo manga is one of my guilty pleasures . . . it's so juvenile and sappy, but I love it . . . Okay, confession time is over.
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Post by Viva la Vida on Sept 7, 2008 7:20:24 GMT -5
I take serious offense at the very notion that a male EVE would be a jerk, because of all the things that EVE is, "jerk" is most definitely NOT one of them! Her temper and aggression comes entirely from her devotion to her programmed directive and the many obstacles she faces in her path... and NOT because she's stuck-up and loves to show off and arrogantly considers herself "way above" WALL-E's league or anything of that sort; I mean, she appreciates him as a friend from the moment they properly meet! How would that translate into a stereotypical macho bully if EVE were to be male? If anything, a male EVE would somewhat resemble a grizzled military officer with a soft heart.
And even if they pulled off the role-reversal in a way that was even more wonderful than what we actually got, the film would become so mired in a vast ocean of complaints about sexism and gender stereotyping and all that other hot-button stuff that the controversy over the socio-ecological themes would almost seem minor in comparison. Not that it couldn't work, especially considering the sheer genius of the Pixar brain trust -- but frankly, I doubt even their genius could transcend the unparalleled thickheadedness and sheer hypocrisy of some of these self-proclaimed "gender role" activists.
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Post by MidgardDragon on Sept 7, 2008 7:28:13 GMT -5
That's the thing, though. While it's a terrible double-standard, it does exist. The mere fact of a male EVE shooting at a female WALL-E, even by mistake, would make some people uncomfortable and scream "abuse". I take offense at it too, but I also know it's the world we live in.
Pretty much sums it up perfectly.
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Post by vanessajoyce on Sept 7, 2008 10:25:08 GMT -5
Yeah, this is something that really gets me ranting. The whole "if a woman does it, it's cool; if a guy does it, it's horrible" thing. That's not equality; it's demeaning to both. I won't mention specific films, but those "let's go give men what they deserve" movies . . . well, I'll just say, I don't care for them at all. (Really restraining myself here.)
EVE was a great character because her reactions make sense in the context of her life. We know that she's over-reacting when she starts blowing up anything that moves, but she doesn't know that. She has no idea what or who WALL-E is and it makes sense to me that in a hostile place, her instincts are to shoot first and ask questions later. It's not personal, it's just the way she sees things.
And, honestly, I could see a male character feeling the same way. If it was handled well it could work as a plot point. I'm thinking of the scene in "Pocahontas" where John Smith sees Pocahontas for the first time. He is prepared to shoot her, but because the director has shown us in previous scenes that he is a kind person, just a little nervous in this new place, the audience can have some confidence in him that he won't just start blasting away. And I would argue that if he DID shoot her (which, of course, he doesn't), the audience probably would not have hated him, just realized he made a terrible mistake that he will later regret and try to amend for.
Stanton did the same thing with EVE to a degree. We get a chance to see her personality a little bit with her beautiful flight -- so when she first starts shooting, we can sort of forgive her because we know she isn't all aggressive -- we've seen her through WALL-E's eyes as someone beautiful and graceful.
Long story, short: It's all in how you set up the character before he/she start shooting away that will determine whether the audience accepts the actions as "normal" (and perhaps even funny in EVE's case) or starts seeing the character as a jerk.
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Post by smkndofpnutdssrt on Sept 7, 2008 11:28:06 GMT -5
I agree, Vanessa. I think if Eve had been a male, they would have had "him" just aim to shoot in a threatening kind of way instead of actually shooting, just because of all the controversy that would have arisen had "he" actually tried to shoot girl!Wall-E.
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Post by femalemiya on Sept 7, 2008 15:33:31 GMT -5
Holy Skittles, wasn't expecting this...OO Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with all of you here, and especially on the "double-standard." For some odd reason the phrase "Damned if you, damned if you don't" comes to mind...
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Post by Castoro Chiaro on Sept 7, 2008 16:24:07 GMT -5
Hm, I've always been very interested in discussions about Male vs. Female Steriotypes. And I'm lovin' all the great points you guys have established thusfar.
Here's a little query: Why is it considered "pathetic and clingy" if a female needs a love interest, but not so when a male needs one? I'm not trying to sound bigoted here, I'm just curious, based on the discussion. I think Wall-E would be just as interesting, regardless of gender.
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Post by MidgardDragon on Sept 7, 2008 16:26:15 GMT -5
Well, it honestly depends on the story being told and the writer's characterization of the characters. I can think of instances where males were written to be "pathetic and clingy" as well, and were female's were written as just those who want to find love. I think, however, that the general stereotype comes from a backlash against "classic" romance, where women always wanted to "find love" and men were always macho and uninterested. It's a role reversal intended to "create equality" while ignoring the fact that reversing roles doesn't create equality, it simply creates a different unbalance.
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